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Email this9:38 am
September 11, 2013
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savemoresaveoften, I tend to use your value-of-my-time method too, though in a modified way - i.e. I calculate using net of income taxes amounts ($5 of interest might be $3 or even less after taxes or loss of other entitlements, credits, etc).
In terms of people having a "relationship" with or feeling "loyalty" to the legal fiction of a corporation, well I must admit I don't get the concept.
10:42 am
December 12, 2009
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DavidAlta13 said
Fact check:
Many times in 2017, I successfully withdrew funds from Hubert four business days after depositing them.
Here's what Hubert's FAQ page shows:
How long are my deposits I transfer in from another institution held?
All electronic transfers are held for four business days, but you start earning interest as soon as you see the deposit in your account.
They go 4 business days after the day of the deposit and excluding statutory banks, much like the banks in this way. Your example of moving money out May 28th and moving back June 4th is only 8 calendar days. I would wait until June 6th. Unless things have changed, they've always had the same hold period as Implicity. Their banking system doesn't show hold release dates, like Implicity.
If you want to convince me, do a "small" test, "pulled" transfer to Hubert (can be as little as $1-5) and show me with screenshots of the day of the transfer and of the first day on which funds are available. You may obscure any personally-identifiable or financially-sensitive information - the screenshots need only show the initial transaction amount and hold amount and the final one need only show that there is no hold. Dates are also key. All other information, such as "ledger balance," your "name(s)," "address(es)" and "account number(s) are irrelevant and should be obscured/blacked out. 🙂
Cheers,
Doug
10:48 am
December 12, 2009
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DavidAlta13 said
40 bps on my $500K for 2017 would have been an extra $2,000 at Tang vs. EQ Bank.I am very happy for Doug that he is so wealthy that this difference is "Not a huge difference by any stretch.
". For me, it represents a significant and material amount.
I hope Doug feels free to private message me to arrange to send $2,000.
As this 40 bps is apparently immaterial for him, I trust he won't even notice."Cheers",
David
You make wrong assumptions. I am neither old nor wealthy. Also, I never made any assumption as to the amount of your balance. Still, I question the apparent "wisdom" of you just sticking $500,000 in a HISA and shuffling it around every calendar quarter for extra money. I can't imagine you need that $500,000 for immediate liquidity. Why not put $400,000 of that into the best rate GICs? At current rates, it's conceivable for you to earn 2.5-3%, which is going to be roughly equal to or greater than your effective annual interest rate with Tangerine when you factor in the likely promo rates you'll get throughout 2018. 🙂
Cheers,
Doug
10:50 am
December 12, 2009
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DavidAlta13 said
"Deposit balances are captured start of day, I believe".
Unfortunately, this belief is false."The wording is specifically vague such that they could be accurately saying they are using the Jan. 2nd, 2018 deposit balances if they are going by the Jan. 2nd balance at the start of the day."
This assertion is false.There is nothing vague about Tang's wording about whether they use the Jan 2, 2018 balance at the start or the end of the day:
Sections 19 and 20 of Tang's Full Offer Terms and Conditions are quite clear that they use the balances at the end of the day:"19. Applicable Accounts opened prior to January 2, 2018 are eligible for Additional Interest on the sum of daily Applicable Account Type balances that exceeds the sum of closing Applicable Account Type balances as at January 2, 2018.
20. Eligible Clients who have an open Applicable Account prior to January 2, 2018 may open a new Applicable Account, however, only balances that exceed the sum of the closing Applicable Account Type balances as at January 2, 2018 will be eligible for the Additional Interest."Forum readers: always do you own fact checks .
Don't be obtuse. You're missing the larger point of what I was getting at. 🙂
Cheers,
Doug
10:54 am
December 12, 2009
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Loonie said
I agree, 40 bps is a lot if you have enough money to make it be a lot.
I also agree that most people don't have enough to make it be a lot, and I believe Canadian statistics will bear that out.However, quite a few people on this forum seem to have enough that it does matter significantly.
If you have many millions of dollars, even 2K may not seem like a whole lot, and I suppose you might not bother chasing it. I have read though that rich people get that way by being miserly about small amounts.
I look at it in terms of absolute dollars. If a switch is going to net me less than $300, I'm probably not going to get around to it and I don't think it's worth messing around with the "relationship" i have with current FI - such as it may be. If it's 300-500, I might get around to it. If it's over 500, I will do it.
No doubt this vague formula is somehow related to my net worth, but everyone evaluates the reward:effort:consequences ratios differently. Some people will follow every dollar, and some won't, regardless of how much they already have - and that goes for both rich and poor.
I have been known to break my own "rules", usually irrationally, but I think it's important to observe when you are being irrational.
That's the way I tend to look at it, too, Loonie, though I get to know (roughly) what the "spread" or "differential" on x amount of money will "yield" me in absolute dollars, too. An extra $25-50 per month, I'm less inclined to switch. An extra $75-100 or more and I probably would. With me moving the bulk of my non-invested cash into great rate, short- to medium-term GICs, that "extra" has gone down significantly on or around $45-50,000 from $120,000 in the previous quarter. 🙂
Cheers,
Doug
10:57 am
December 12, 2009
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savemoresaveoften said
Given these days all transactions are made electronically, it does not take much effort to move money around. If you calculate how much time you actually spend to move money around to "earn that extra interest", your hourly rate for that effort is very high (imagine $300 and take u 5 mins, thats $3600/hr. Even $20 extra at 5mins is like $240/hr. >99% dont make that kind of hourly rate).Other than earning extra interest, it also keeps the banks in check to offer reasonable rates for deposit. I am not against any corporation (banks or not) for making a good profit, but earn it in a respectable manner (even after paying 2.5% and lending it out at Prime+0.5%, there is still >100bp profit in it) One thing I absolutely despise is banks charging $5-10 monthly fee on accounts with min balance, as it hits the poor the most and not justified as all account admin are automated these days.
In terms of relationship with an FI, its not different than your relationship with ur telco. Loyalty does not get rewarded. A relationship with a FI may be worth something for a small business, but not rate chasers on this site.
I think what Loonie, and I, are getting is not just the time it takes to make the transaction but in the reconciliation when it comes to ensuring the associated external debit/credit amounts and dates match up or aren't out by a day, not to mention reading through the ever-expanding T&C, which they've been known to change more frequently. Looking at it collectively, all of this adds time.
Cheers,
Doug
1:11 pm
October 21, 2013
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I don't hold "loyalty" in very high regard, as it's usually a one-way street. Nonetheless, Hubert probably needs me more than TD ever did, and I want Hubert to stay open and flourish, so I am less likely to be moving my money in and out of there every few weeks or months because somebody else offers me a few more basis points for a while. I think that's sensible, serves my own self-interest, and does not line the pockets of bank shareholders who do absolutely nothing to earn it. For me, there are more considerations than the immediate ones.
I have no "loyalty" to Tangerine, but prefer not to upset their applecart too much by moving six figures in and out more often than necessary. I just move it to chequing. If the offer is not competitive, then I move it out. I give them a chance to respond.
Rate-chasing is a matter of self-respect, but means different things to different people.
3:12 pm
April 11, 2017
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Doug said
They go 4 business days after the day of the deposit and excluding statutory banks, much like the banks in this way. Your example of moving money out May 28th and moving back June 4th is only 8 calendar days. I would wait until June 6th. Unless things have changed, they've always had the same hold period as Implicity. Their banking system doesn't show hold release dates, like Implicity.
If you want to convince me, do a "small" test, "pulled" transfer to Hubert (can be as little as $1-5) and show me with screenshots of the day of the transfer and of the first day on which funds are available. You may obscure any personally-identifiable or financially-sensitive information - the screenshots need only show the initial transaction amount and hold amount and the final one need only show that there is no hold. Dates are also key. All other information, such as "ledger balance," your "name(s)," "address(es)" and "account number(s) are irrelevant and should be obscured/blacked out. 🙂
Cheers,
Doug
Once again, I encourage folks to do some fact checking prior to posting false information or when reading anything posted by others, including me.
The fact is that Hubert explicitly states their hold is four business days, and my experience shows that the day of the deposit is day 1, the hold is on for 3 more business days and the deposited money may be withdrawn on the 5th business day after the deposit was made, counting the day of the deposit as the 1st.
I don't know about Implicity's holds or system for displaying them.
Hubert's system does in fact display holds; see 1st screen shot below. I am not going to take another on Jan 10 to show that the hold is gone after the Jan 4 deposit; the below examples of earlier withdrawals made 5 business days after deposits are proof enough.
The 2nd screen shot below shows my Hubert transactions for the periods Jun 28-Jul 5 and Sep 28 - Oct 4. In both cases, I withdrew the funds on the 5th business day after they were deposited.
Wed - Fri, Jun 28 - 30 were business days 1, 2 & 3, and Tue Jul 4 was business day 4, as Mon Jul 3 was observed as a stat. in lieu of Sat, Jul 1.
If Hubert's hold was in fact for those four business days, I should have been able to withdraw the funds on Tue, Jul 5, the 5th business day after Jun 28, and as you can see, I did.
Thu - Fri, Sep 28-29 were business days 1 & 2, and Mon - Tue, Oct 2-3 were business days 3 & 4.
If Hubert's hold was in fact for those four business days, I should have been able to withdraw the funds on Wed, Oct 4, the 5th business day after Sep 28, and as you can see, I did.
I made a mistake in my end of May, 2018 example in post 112.
I have two goals in mind: to ensure the money is out of Tang Savings on Fri, Jun 1, and to lose only 1 day's interest on the money on the transfer back into Tang Savings.
If I moved the money from Tang Savings to Tang Chequing on Fri, Jun 1 (for an end of day snapshot balance of nil), and back to Tang Savings on Mon, Jun 4, I would lose 3 days' interest.
If I used my example from post 112 and moved the money into Hubert after noon on Mon, May 28, the 4 day hold would expire after Thu, May 31 and I could push it back to Tang before noon on Fri, Jun 1, the 5th business day, for arrival on Mon, Jun 4.
This would result in double interest at both Hubert & Tang for Mon & Tue, May 28 & 29, but 3 days' lost interest for Jun 1-3.
Instead, I should move the money into Hubert after noon on Wed, May 30 and after the hold expires on Mon, Jun 4, push it back to Tang before noon on Tue, Jun 5 for arrival on Wed, Jun 6.
This would result in double interest for Wed & Thu, May 30-31, and only 1 day lost interest on Tue, Jun 5.
3:12 pm
April 11, 2017
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Doug said
You make wrong assumptions. I am neither old nor wealthy. Also, I never made any assumption as to the amount of your balance. Still, I question the apparent "wisdom" of you just sticking $500,000 in a HISA and shuffling it around every calendar quarter for extra money. I can't imagine you need that $500,000 for immediate liquidity. Why not put $400,000 of that into the best rate GICs? At current rates, it's conceivable for you to earn 2.5-3%, which is going to be roughly equal to or greater than your effective annual interest rate with Tangerine when you factor in the likely promo rates you'll get throughout 2018. 🙂
Cheers,
Doug
No, I did not make any wrong assumptions about you; I did not make any at all. And I certainly did not say you were old.
A. I apologize for using the winking face to mean that I was joking about your wealth & sending me $2,000. Let me clarify:
For goodness sake, I was joking and made no assumptions about your wealth.
B. As you do not know the amount of my portfolio nor share my risk profile, you are in no position to question the wisdom of my choices, just as I am in no position to question yours.
C. I am sure that if you put your mind to it, you could imagine many scenarios that would lead you to want at least $500,000 in liquid cash.
What if you had $10 million or a $100 million, and $500,000 was only 5% or 0.5% of your worth?
What if you expected interest rates to rise and, rather than locking all your cash into 5-year GIC's at today's highest rate of 2.73%? What if you thought the market was over valued and you wanted some cash available to buy stocks if they go on sale? What if you thought it better to either:
(i) keep the cash in a HISA paying 2.75% (the rate Tang was paying until just 6 days ago), higher than the best 5-year GIC rate?
(ii) build a ladder of GICs with maturities spread over the next 5 years?
(iii) keep some liquid cash available to buy equities if the market declines by more than 25%?
(iv) have some cash available to move into dividend (low tax) paying preferred shares yielding the pre-tax interest equivalent of more than 5%?
These are only the 1st four options for wanting a lot of liquidity I came up with off the top of my head.
I'd be interested in hearing how many others you can come up with 
3:13 pm
April 11, 2017
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Doug said
Don't be obtuse. You're missing the larger point of what I was getting at. 🙂
Cheers,
Doug
Hopefully we are all here to be helpful to our fellow wise consumers (my spin on "rate chasers").
We can do this in a respectful manner without resorting to calling others things like obtuse.
However, I must confess that I did miss your larger point.
You appeared to be quite focused and clear that you did not believe Tang would use end of day balances for their snapshots, as you made a point to write it in both posts 98 & 104, using italics for apparent emphasis.
Since your assertions were factually incorrect, my point was to ensure others were not misled:
The simple fact is that Tang uses end of day ("closing" in their legal lingo) balances for their snapshots and interest calculations, never the start of day balances.
While I may not be obtuse, I am human and imperfect.
Feel free to enlighten me and clarify what your larger point was.
5:56 pm
September 7, 2016
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DavidAlta13
Well said.
I agree pejorative responses have no place here and undermine the reason for this forum.
I've found your posts well thought out in trying to share information than casting opinion.
Looks like a screen shot slam dunk of truth, nicely done without pettiness.
6:35 pm
October 21, 2013
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I keep a lot of money in cash...
Might have to go out tomorrow and buy myself a new house in TO!
Might get diagnosed with a terminal disease next week and have to spend it all right away on my bucket list.
Might need to even out my lumpy mattress.
Might take it out in small bills and paper my walls for a startling new designer effect.
Might get slain with a crisis of conscience and need to give it all to some homeless folks or refugees on a real cold night.
Might want to reassure myself that it really exists.
Might be held hostage in US hospital after unexpected medical disaster until pay large bill.
Sky might fall, and I can help by building lego-style supports with loonies and twonies.
The possibilities are endless!
No can do if all tied up in cyberspace or vault!
I was going to say "just my two cents", but, since that is as elusive as a two-dollar bill, I say, "let's lighten up and have some humour around here on a cold Saturday night!"
7:41 pm
December 12, 2009
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Thanks for your replies, David. I won't specifically address everything but, nonetheless, I'll just say one thing: be wary of relying on publicly stated hold periods on FI websites. As much as I love and trust Hubert, they are not infallible.
I can assure you, the hold period was and likely still is 10 calendar days,
inclusive of the date of the deposit.
Often, FIs will hide behind their public commitments, i.e., the 4 business day maximum hold period for CAD-denominated and drawn deposits (after the date of deposit) when, in reality, it's a bit different than that. Also, Hubert, as a provincially-regulated credit union, is not subject to any maximum hold period like the banks. 🙂
Cheers,
Doug
9:19 pm
March 21, 2017
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Doug said
I certainly look at "lost potential interest" as a cost when making my decision but, once I've made it, I try to put that out of my mind. It's not really a "cost" in terms of a fee or charge ...
How is lost interest not a cost in the big picture. You seem to be flip-flopping here for some reason?
9:25 pm
March 21, 2017
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Doug said
Fair & Transparent Disclosure: ... it bears repeating every so often. I currently own ~100 shares of Bank of Nova Scotia, ~100 shares of CIBC (my "top pick" in terms of overall business strategy and mix currently) and ~200 shares of Toronto Dominion Bank (my "best return," with an average cost of <$30 per share from my initial purchase in 2009, though it's edged higher from ~$18 per share due to adding to my initial purchase). In terms of other bank shares, I hold 5000 shares of Street Capital Group and ~375 shares of HSBC Holdings plc Ordinary Shares in on the UK Principal Register.
Please keep us updated 🙂
9:56 pm
April 11, 2017
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Moneyman, Thanks for the supportive & positive feedback.
Loonie, Thanks for showing such imagination and fun too!
Doug, I am in awe at your strength of character in being able to "boldly" repeat your opinion despite, as moneyman said, "a screen shot slam dunk of truth" proving otherwise.
10:40 pm
December 15, 2016
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Loonie said
I don't hold "loyalty" in very high regard, as it's usually a one-way street. Nonetheless, Hubert probably needs me more than TD ever did, and I want Hubert to stay open and flourish, so I am less likely to be moving my money in and out of there every few weeks or months because somebody else offers me a few more basis points for a while. I think that's sensible, serves my own self-interest, and does not line the pockets of bank shareholders who do absolutely nothing to earn it. For me, there are more considerations than the immediate ones.
I have no "loyalty" to Tangerine, but prefer not to upset their applecart too much by moving six figures in and out more often than necessary. I just move it to chequing. If the offer is not competitive, then I move it out. I give them a chance to respond.
Rate-chasing is a matter of self-respect, but means different things to different people.
You're kidding, right ? Upsetting their applecart by moving six figures ?
I once had over 400k with them and when they only offered 1.6% when EQ was offering 2.3 % I politely said to the CSR that I would like to stay with TANG but I can't leave the funds there at 1.6%
He said "Well, that's the best that we can do" so I asked him to move the money out and he said, fine.
I had been there for over 15 years so they may look at one's history and after so many promotions, they don't care if you stay or leave. Six figures are peanuts to them.
10:52 pm
October 21, 2013
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But six figures is all they allow on their promos. Are you saying we're all immaterial to them? (Could be right!)
I was actually more concerned, though, about other FIs.
7:10 am
December 15, 2016
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Loonie said
But six figures is all they allow on their promos. Are you saying we're all immaterial to them? (Could be right!)I was actually more concerned, though, about other FIs.
No, I was just surprised by the "upsetting their applecart remark" but it's nice to see them treating everyone equally now.
12:04 pm
January 4, 2018
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First time posting. Moved all monies into Simplii 3% until Feb 28 out of tangerine on Jan 01,2018, for tax reasons. Will wait to activate new saving at tangerine until bank of Canada rate decision on January 17. Then only one of my savings account will I activate to see if better rates come from Tangerine, after the January 31 dead line. Also BOC still has another rate decision on March 07, Does anyone else think this could happen better rates coming if BOC raises rates?
Marie
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