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Email this2:57 pm
December 12, 2008
Offline
The part you DO NOT see is that ING DOES NOT KNOW that the funds have been deducted successfully from your RBC Account.
You believe that ING looks at the balance on your RBC account takes the money, but that is NOT the way it works.
How about I explain to you what would happen if you had INSUFFICIENT funds in your RBC account. So you setup a request within ING to grab $x amount from your RBC Account tomorrow. The next day, ING Sends the request to RBC to debit $x amount (ie pre-authorized debit). Without knowing if the transaction is actually successful, ING will still increase your balance by $x amount. RBC then has within the next 5-10 (not sure of the exact number here) business days to Recall this transaction due to insufficient funds. Though you may immediately see the same day an NSF Charge by RBC due to the insufficient funds. But RBC may take over a week to recall the funds from ING, and during this time your ING account is still showing you this $x balance increase until RBC reports insufficient funds. But once they do, then ING would decrease your balance by $x and charge you some sort of NSF as well.
The issue is you believe just because your balance has decreased at one bank and increased at another = the transaction is successful from both banks prospective. THIS IS NOT THE CASE. All ING knows is that they sent a request to RBC for $x, and RBC has a certain amount of time to recall this transaction.
This is the exact same scenario when one deposits a cheque. The Bank you deposit the cheque with does NOT know that the cheque issuer has sufficient funds to clear the cheque. The Bank which deposits the cheque with makes a request to the Bank the cheque was issued by for the funds written on the cheque. The Bank who issued the cheque has a certain amount of time (I think 5-10 days) to recall the cheque due to insufficient funds, otherwise its deemed successful.
djino
6:09 am
December 12, 2008
Offline
I'm not sure if you ever experienced and NSF Charge on any of your banks, but if you have, you may recall that the bank/company who requested the pre-authorized debit/cheque most likely DID NOT see this until days after your bank reported the NSF.
The exact same process applies with a successful transaction. The bank the money is going too will report a successful transaction unless the sending bank report NSF later on.
djino
4:35 pm
If you have a couple of hours to kill go to the Canadian Payment Associations website
http://www.cdnpay.ca and read the act on clearing of payments by EDI. I believe it's Rule E3.
It will provide some well needed explanations.
Regards,
6:57 pm
thank you very much for your e3 rules...
i guess u r really working for ING and are trained in the same way as those call center employees trying to explain to customers of ING.
If i understand EDI system right, my money goes this way...
1. ING sends the money transfer request to RBC
2. RBC, as the originating direct participant, "shall initiate EDI Payment Items to Receiving Direct Participants no more than one Business Day prior to the value date"
3. RBC, as the originating direct participant, "shall complete transmission of EDI Payment Items to Receiving Direct Participants by 17:00 hours on Value Date."
4. For all transmissions of EDI Payment Items completed by the Originating Direct Participant, ING, as the Receiving Direct Participant is required to provide an application advice as appropriate, and a functional acknowledgement, pursuant to Part II, Sections 6.6 and 6.7 respectively, as soon as practical after receipt of the transmission and no later than 18:00 hours on the date of receipt of the transmission. The Originating Direct Participant is required to return a functional
acknowledgement in response to the application advice no later than 10:00 hours the next Business Day.
5. as for the ACSS settlement, it is usually done on the next morning and " Each debit entry shall specify the total number and value of Items received from the Direct Participant being debited and shall be made by 17:00 hours on the Settlement Date."
then, pls tell me, how come ING does not know if i have enough money or not?
one thing u should know is "RBC' sends the EDI AFTER it is sure that i have enough money and AFTER they deducted the amount from my account.
YES, RBC has the right to ask the money back, but look at the time frame please "
A completed Payment Cancellation Request form (a pro forma sample is attached as
Appendix III of Part I) shall be forwarded by the Originating Direct Participant to the Receiving Direct Participant by facsimile. The form shall be received by the Receiving Direct Participant by 15:00 hours one Business Day prior to the Value Date of the relevant EDI Payment Item."
where is the 5-10 days you mentioned??? it is very very limited to a very short time frame actually.
5-10 days is the trained explanation dudee, dont fool me around like that 
7:04 pm
TELL me ING dudee professional bankers
1. what RBC will show in my account when they try to send money to ING and find NSF??? will they write NSF in my bank account or write the deducted amount in my account to make the balance even a -xxxx?????
2. RBC as the originating direct participant, will it initiate the EDI payment if i dont have enough money?
tell me, and tell me in a convincing way....dont use your cliche, i am fed up by that
7:43 pm
finally i realized this....
5 DAYS are determined by ING...it is not a nationwide standard..it is a date specified by each bank....
7:49 pm
if i have 100 dollars in my rbc account and i tried by transfer 1000 dollars from RBC to ING, i guess the following scenario will happen
1. in my RBC account, an NSF item will show...
2. in my ING account, an NSF item will show too...
if RBC finds NSF, how come it will send the confirmative acknowledgmente to ING and ING shows added money to my account?
when in both of my RBC and ING accounts, same amount of money is deducted and added respectively, it means that both institutions confirmed the transfer...
this is the basic logic
4:48 pm
First of all, I don't work for a bank and secondly, I hate banks and their bureaucratic non-sense.
I'm on your side...the banks have 24 to 48 business hours to notify the receiving participant of NSF's, closed or frozen accounts...not 5 to 10 days which most bank employees will tell you.
Personally, I would ask them to pay back the NSF fees and stop at nothing until you are reimbursed.
I went through a similar scenario with ING a few weeks ago relating to a $10K transfer to put into a 90 day GIC at their special rates. Unfortunately, I misunderstood from their advertising and realized it only applied to registered plans.
Therefore, I wanted to transfer the money back to the originating bank. Unfortuantely, I could only transfer $5K because of my credit history with them but they would not release the remaining $5K due to their hold policy. I asked them to call the originating bank and confirm the funds were there in the first place and also offered them to put a hold on money held within an RRSP. They were willing to do both.
4:24 am
thank you very much my friend. finally i heard some reasonable and conscious voices...
anyway, i will use up their checks and quit with no return.
all banks suck these days...incredible mistakes and no apology usually...
big fish plays with big fish, we small fish have to be played by them...they tell u, u have your choice, and u have free will...
no...not at all, in such a huge system, nobody has free will any more...choice, freedom and decision are just words, money drives everything...
le fin du monde
4:25 am
and i feel really sorry for your experience...only people suffer from this can understand what it means to the people who suffer....
8:40 am
All of us have suffered from bank mistreatment in some form or another. They are an oligopoly and the agencies that monitor them are a joke. In my case my bank lost my RSP transfer form and compromised my identity. In that week someone used my SIN and other info on that form to apply for credit cards and cell phone accounts, and damaged my credit rating. My complaints to the bank were left unanswered. I can only vote with my money, which is to pull my money out of there and stop giving them business. You should do the same. If ING did you injustice, just close your account and don't give them business.
10:00 am
Bob said:
All of us have suffered from bank mistreatment in some form or another. They are an oligopoly and the agencies that monitor them are a joke. In my case my bank lost my RSP transfer form and compromised my identity. In that week someone used my SIN and other info on that form to apply for credit cards and cell phone accounts, and damaged my credit rating. My complaints to the bank were left unanswered. I can only vote with my money, which is to pull my money out of there and stop giving them business. You should do the same. If ING did you injustice, just close your account and don't give them business.
EXACTLY ..... I give financial institutions 1 chance ... second mistake or dumbness .... I am gone!!!!
10:05 pm
Man, this thread is juicy!
Anybody recommend pulling ALL MONEY out of Canadian banks (to hell with their disgusting savings interest rates that haven't budged for over 3 yrs now) and dumping the cash into another country's banking system?
(I am a Canadian citizen but living overseas in a booming Southeast Asian economy. An awakening dragon of an economy, actually.)
Cheers to all!
9:50 am
I find it hard to sympathize with someone who's complaining in a propaganda fashion but can't even bother to use proper grammar. Blame the system all you want but I'm sure most of us can do without your thoughtful "warning".
10:45 am
Russell Upsomgrubb said:
Man, this thread is juicy!
Anybody recommend pulling ALL MONEY out of Canadian banks (to hell with their disgusting savings interest rates that haven't budged for over 3 yrs now) and dumping the cash into another country's banking system?
(I am a Canadian citizen but living overseas in a booming Southeast Asian economy. An awakening dragon of an economy, actually.)
Cheers to all!
Yes, if I was you.....I would try any of the Greek banking opportunities!!
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