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Email this6:55 am
December 2, 2012
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Deb said
A cautionary tale re: .
I'm willing to bet it happens more often than anyone wants to think.
Another reason to be very careful, and another reason to be happy every day I am an only child.
9:04 am
October 21, 2013
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That's a very sad story, Deb. And I can see where there ultimately wasn't anything you could do about it because he did not act under her power of attorney, only under his power of persuasion, so he had no responsibility to manage the money in her best interests.
As I suggested earlier, joint accounts aren't always the best solution, and it's rather feeble of financial institutions to suggest that this is the way one should manage one's affairs.
These kinds of situations arise more often than people realize, sorry to say.
I can only throw in one resource that might be helpful to someone else who reads this thread. In Ontario at least, there is an organization called The Advocacy Centre for the Elderly, situated in Toronto. They are a non-profit group with lawyers on staff who make it their business to advise and help seniors who are having difficulty asserting their rights in terms of abuse (financial and otherwise, I believe) and also in dealing with the CCAC (the provincial authority that oversees home care and nursing home placement). They have a website, and there is a great deal of useful information there. Also one can call them for advice, but they typically only want to deal with the senior themselves.
9:38 pm
October 21, 2013
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MAXA says they are going to review their policies in view of my comments and suggestions.
9:41 pm
October 21, 2013
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I just had to deal with a different lawyer this week. This one handed the original to the author, didn't keep it in the lawyer's vault. So, now I have one experience of each kind, one keeping it in the lawyer's vault and another handing it back. Since I am the executor on the latter, I immediately put it in my own safety deposit box. The author of the will will never use it, so we thought that made sense.
3:11 pm
October 15, 2015
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I'd be interested in hearing from people about their experience with power of attorneys at the big banks. I'm thinking of switching to tangerine from td and tangerine says it takes 30 days for power of attorney to get access and i'm wondering if a big bank would be faster. What did peoples trust say? That concerns me as i have a tfsa account there which would be useful to beneficiaries. I'm considering giving my account info to my sisters who are my powers of attorney but don't feel entirely comfortable. I thought if i gave one my account numbers and 1 my password it would be safer. In a way using tangerine would be useful as i could give them the one account number and then they could eft from savings accounts.
3:59 pm
December 17, 2016
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christinad said
I'd be interested in hearing from people about their experience with power of attorneys at the big banks. I'm thinking of switching to tangerine from td and tangerine says it takes 30 days for power of attorney to get access and i'm wondering if a big bank would be faster. What did peoples trust say? That concerns me as i have a tfsa account there which would be useful to beneficiaries. I'm considering giving my account info to my sisters who are my powers of attorney but don't feel entirely comfortable. I thought if i gave one my account numbers and 1 my password it would be safer. In a way using tangerine would be useful as i could give them the one account number and then they could eft from savings accounts.
I am both a past and a current POA. In both instances I presented the original POA document directly to both bank and CU representatives at the locations where the accounts were. I was given immediate access to the accounts and was able to set up the accounts online with my own sign-ins and passwords. I then went about cancelling credit cards and the like. As an aside, I found the 2 CUs to be easier to work with than either of the Big 5 banks are/were.
In both cases I dealt with individuals with dementia and not a short term illness.
With your concern about accounts and passwords is that more about the POA taking over your affairs for a short period of illness OR for the long term?
4:35 pm
October 15, 2015
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Thanks for your response. I am interested in short term right now. One of my sister's banks at td and i'm wondering if that would make it easier. On the other hand from what i've read at financial wisdom forum td sounds bureaucratic. I don't really feel comfortable giving my sisters access to brokerage account. (It is not that i don't trust them it just feels weird.) So i'm wondering about switching to tangerine and then i could could keep my password secret to brokerage. Or would somewhere like coast capital be better?
Loonie, i found the peoples thread. I think i'll phone them.
6:14 pm
October 27, 2013
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christinad said
I'd be interested in hearing from people about their experience with power of attorneys at the big banks. I'm thinking of switching to tangerine from td and tangerine says it takes 30 days for power of attorney to get access and i'm wondering if a big bank would be faster. What did peoples trust say? That concerns me as i have a tfsa account there which would be useful to beneficiaries. I'm considering giving my account info to my sisters who are my powers of attorney but don't feel entirely comfortable. I thought if i gave one my account numbers and 1 my password it would be safer. In a way using tangerine would be useful as i could give them the one account number and then they could eft from savings accounts.
I have had experience as both a POA and an Executor. Well prepared Enduring POA documents by lawyers are perfectly fine to gain access to bank accounts and brokerages.. I would not worry much about access taking maybe 1 month to get into place (the institutions may want to know more about the condition of the one granting the Enduring POA, e.g. from a third person such as family member or a doctor just to validate that an Enduring POA is not trying to do an end run). A 30 day gap is not that critical because IF business must be conducted to pay bills within the 30 days, the banks will often do that on the POA's direction (but not let the POA do the physical transfer). I did the same thing as an Executor. Until the bank was satisfied I had a valid will and I was the valid Executor, they took direction from me to pay bills that needed to be paid to avoid overdue costs.
As far as giving your sisters POA, you don't have to give them your account information at all while you are still mentally capable. Simply tell them specifically where that information is, at your home, so that they can access it when actually needed.
Example1: I have Enduring POA for my brother. He has given me a Word document in which he spells out where all his important accounts are. He has also told me how to access the account numbers and passwords in his home, and I have a key to his home. Until there is a specific need for me to act as POA, there is no reason for me to 'break into his home and steal his information'.
Example 2: My sons are my Enduring POA and I have given them a document that tells them all my important information such as where my accounts are AND the account numbers. I have also told them where to find the passwords for all my accounts in my house should the need arise. They would have to physically come into my house and access that info.
9:44 am
October 15, 2015
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Thanks Altared
Currently I have my passwords memorized so i'd have to think where to store them.
I checked with Peoples Trust and they do accept powers of attorney. They say you can mail it in and they will process it the same day.
Oaken said they will require 2 pcs of ID and the POA. But they say if the power of attorney does not have existing non-registered accounts with Oaken already, they will need to meet the same application and ID requirements as a new client which is interesting
I am checking with Hubert Financial. EQ bank outlines their poa process on their website.
1:39 pm
October 21, 2013
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I know that some FIs accept POA and others don't.
Quite some years ago I signed a POA at TD because it was something I needed at the time. I never revoked it, but they eventually "lost" it and claimed there was no such thing on my account. By then I no longer actively needed it, but too bad if I were depending on it. I was not happy.
So, now, I would only do it through a lawyer.
I am in the process of moving everything to joint accounts with spouse so as to minimize the grief. It's not really what I want to do but I feel there is no realistic choice. It reduces access to deposit insurance except for MB CUs.
I really think nobody should make a move on this question without speaking to a reliable lawyer.
And, speaking of lawyers, never appoint your lawyer as your executor unless you are desperate. You'd be better off with a trust company if you don't have anyone suitable.
6:07 am
September 11, 2013
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General POA question: If I execute a power of attorney authorizing someone to act in my stead, am I still able to act for myself? i.e. are there now two people who can act for me, me and the attorney, or just the attorney? (Assume the POA document does not address this issue.)
7:56 am
October 27, 2013
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It depends on the type of the POA.
Enduring or Continuing POAs would allow both the Grantor and Attorney to act on one's behalf at any time. It does not prevent the Grantor from acting on one's own behalf. That is the first thing a lawyer or notary public will ensure the Grantor knows when developing that kind of POA.
A POA that comes into force only when the Grantor is deemed incapable of acting then blocks the Grantor from acting for oneself once the medical (and court) system have activated the POA.
In most cases, neither of these POA types should pose a major problem. In the first instance, a perfectly capable Grantor can always revoke the Enduring/Continuing POA if the Attorney has gone rogue. It is the latter type where conflict can happen, i.e. the Grantor moves into, or out of, being capable and yet believes s/he is capable. That would be a hard one for an Attorney to deal with since it can end up in a fight (taking away for all practical purposes, one's indepedence).
3:13 pm
September 11, 2013
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Thanks AltaRed.
4:13 pm
April 6, 2013
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I don't think there's any blocking of the grantor of a power of attorney in Ontario.
In Ontario, the only difference between a continuing power of attorney for property and a non-continuing one is that the continuing one continues to be in force regardless of the grantor's current mental capacity. From Power of Attorney and "Living Wills" - Some Questions and Answers:
2. Are there different kinds of Power of Attorney?
Yes. In Ontario there are three kinds of Power of Attorney:
- A Continuing Power of Attorney for Property (CPOA) covers your financial affairs and allows the person you name to act for you even if you become mentally incapable.
- A non-continuing Power of Attorney for Property covers your financial affairs but can’t be used if you become mentally incapable. You might give this Power of Attorney, for example, if you need someone to look after your financial transactions while you’re away from home for an extended period of time.
- A Power of Attorney for Personal Care (POAPC) covers your personal decisions, such as housing and health care.
3:20 pm
September 11, 2013
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A POA executed 7 years ago has a now-incorrect address shown for a witness (I don't even know her current address) - does anyone know if that might cause problems at some point? Dementia has set in, doubtful a new POA can be done now.
8:22 pm
January 3, 2013
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Main reason I have all my passwords saved in a secure place with all instructions on withdrawal and all linked to a joint account.
11:39 am
October 21, 2013
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Save2Retire@55 said
Main reason I have all my passwords saved in a secure place with all instructions on withdrawal and all linked to a joint account.
Me too. I recently made the changes so that they would all feed into joint accounts. I still have some work to do on the password side.
This still won't help though if it is necessary to phone them.
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